The adhering to is a conversation in between 2 indigenous wahine of Te Moananui a Kiwa. It goes over the interconnected streams of depiction, narration, and also profession of native landscapes from our family member rooms and also within our usual rooms.

Among us lives in Te Ika a Maui, Aotearoa, and also among us lives on Moku o Keawe- Hawaii Island, Hawai’i. Both people stay on native lands under profession, and also both people stay as participants of the native areas of Te Moananui a Kiwa.

Tina: Tena koe Keala, me o koutou tini tipuna ki Hawai’i. Thankyou a lot for sharing this conversation with me. There is a lot that requires to be stated from our family member genealogical and also geographical rooms and also I’m very satisfied of your understandings. Mahalo nui.

Keala: Mahalo to you, Tina, for welcoming me right into this vital conversation.


Tina: We have actually both been rather singing in our resistance to Disney’s “Moana.” I understand that both people share the fact of being native individuals in colonized lands, and also among the essential indications of colonisation that we experience below in Aotearoa is that of background and also depiction. From the really earliest days we have actually had anthropologists and also ethnographers looking for to inform our tales, with devastating results. Much more just recently below we are handling the upcoming year long multimillion buck 250 year wedding anniversary of Captain Chef’s arrival in Aotearoa (due in 2019).

Keala: I need to insert below and also claim that it nearly seems imaginary to me to come across this party. I concur totally regarding this issue of depiction. Undoubtedly it goes method past the indication of an item of society burglary like what Disney is doing, and also we ought to truly flesh that out. Yet wow! I am surprised by the idea, a lot less the strategy, of commemorating Captain Chef’s arrival to anywhere, other than where he belonged: England. It’s simply incorrect on a lot of degrees. In Hawai‘i Nei we have a very different narrative about him, and he doesn’ t obtain commemorated.

Tina: Yes and also I have actually been acutely familiar with just how much we vary because respect. When I have actually organized Kanaka Maoli site visitors they have actually all talked about the method which Chef is commemorated below, in comparison to Hawai’i, no question because of our British colonial supports. Right here in Turanganui a Kiwa, Chef obtained calling legal rights to the bay, 2 statuaries of him, a statuary of the cosmetic surgeon’s aide, a statuary of his watercraft, a memorial, a plaza, an observatory, a healthcare facility, and also a road, and also currently he obtains a year of celebration.

Keala: Wow, once more! That’s a lot of honoring currently in position. That discusses why the pakeha really feel so qualified, they stay in a location that is called for THEIR predecessor, in a manner of speaking.

Tina: I have actually battled with the method which pākeha have actually launched this 2019 conversation, after that baited involvement by specifying the parties as an inescapable final thought, leaving us with just a selection to take part or have our variation be totally excluded, or misstated by others.

Keala: Yes, since there are “versions” of background, right? Ours from our real experiences and also viewpoints, and also their own. Other than, they obtain 2 variations of their viewpoint, do not they? They obtain their tale of the that, what, where, and also why of their activities, and afterwards they obtain their variation of our experience, which in their minds suffices. They lure you and afterwards they constrain the discussion and also if you do not step in for yourselves they will certainly make it appear like every person concurs since every person is speaking about it!

Tina: Precisely! It’s discouraging in the severe when our very own voices are made use of as a system for another person’s schedule. This conflation makes it tough for us to browse our method to a real room of firm– for also when we do have our say, it rests at the perimeter of one more, main style that is not ours. Like Noam Chomsky states: “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum”.

Keala: Yes! And also individuals are tricked right into thinking they worked out some sort of power when the whole time the end result was, as you claim, a forgone final thought.

Tina: I wished to share an experience I had just recently when I mosted likely to Hawai’i. I was so really lucky and also honoured to be welcomed to find over and also to be required to Kealakekua Bay. I was really clear regarding what I wished to do when we arrived. I wished to recognize your forefathers there …

What I experienced there was really traumatic. When we beinged in the watercraft, in the bay, the mana of that room was obvious, yet I was likewise conquered with despair. There was the mana of those spiritual high cliffs over us, and also recognizing the background as it associates with Kamehameha and also the lots of ali’i of that room– the mana of the kupuna and also land as one was frustrating. Yet it was overwhelming with travelers, and also there in the center of everything was this excellent white monstrosity. This fabricated pillar enforced upon a spiritual native landscape and also had actually come to be the prime focus– with the real mana overlooked, or at finest stated in the perimeter.

Keala: Yah, there it stands, this white phallus honoring Chef’s death. Yet what notes our death there in Kealakekua? The residues of the Hikiau Heiau on the contrary side of the Chef monolith are an actual comparison. That bay, to me, has constantly had something depressing regarding it. Yet Chef’s fatality isn’t why. I understand that to British individuals it was a big offer, him passing away there. Yet to Hawaiians, not a lot. He really did not indicate to Hawaiians what he suggested to others.

It is essential to keep in mind that originally when he appeared, it was throughout Makahiki, so a great deal of Hawaiians existed since that’s an event. Yet you saw the bay– it isn’t that huge of a location, so it has to have been truly crowded. And also I understand that individuals have actually composed, advertisement nauseam, regarding just how the Hawaiians assumed he was the god Lono, yet that tale started with Chef’s very own staff. It’s tough for me to think that such smart individuals would certainly have misinterpreted him for a god, when plainly he and also his staff were human. He’s taken the initial haole they ever before saw, yet also that story needs to be wondered about since Polynesians were extraordinary navigators and also they would certainly been around the Pacific. And also haole individuals had actually currently conquered locations from The United States and Canada to South America. Yet, as the tale goes Chef was dealt with extremely well. Yet after he remained for some time the Hawaiians bid him bye-bye … for I do not understand the length of time. Days? A week? After that he returned, right? And also this moment the function had not been the very same. Possibly they would certainly tired of him and also his staff since they were high upkeep, and also Makahiki was pau currently so individuals were back to their regular. Functioning. Expanding food, discovering, mentor, hoping, connecting, doing what they performed in the training course of a typical day.

There is some supposition regarding his practices in the 3rd trip, that it might have been influenced by the illness he and also his staff lugged, like syphilis. The factor for that evaluation is since throughout his last days his or else tranquil manner was changed by a brief mood and also mad outbursts. His effort to abduct Kalaniopuu, the ali’i nui, was a poor choice. He was mad since some Hawaiians had actually allegedly taken among his cutters. And also when individuals understood what Chef was doing, since it was Chef essentially leading Kalaniopuu away, they eliminated him and also numerous of his males.

And after that life returned to regular, other than with the included worry of illness Chef’s males left and also currently, unbeknownst to them, Hawaii got on a British map.

Tina: Thankyou a lot for sharing that. It’s criminal, to me, that the mana of these spiritual rooms and also names, and also the viewpoints of individuals of that room are shed in the “white noise” of Chef’s tale, or that they have to hang off it like knickknacks on a Xmas tree. I could not aid yet take into consideration that this was specifically what was taking place once more, 250 years later on in Aotearoa. The native tale being put at the perimeter of the tale of Chef’s arrival. Actually this is what has actually been taking place right throughout the years in between– our native voices taking a rear seats and also the criminal activities versus us as native individuals constantly being reduced for a few other“greater good” I was truthfully not really prepared for being so highly struck with this as an aesthetic indication when I arrived.

Keala: Well, mahalo to you for observing the desecration this monolith to white-ness is. I likewise wish to claim that this centuries long early american hypnotherapy regarding us constantly providing it up for another person’s suggestion of the “the greater good” is so prevalent that it in fact feeds right into our erasure from from numerous instructions. One instance is our kakau being taken by non-natives. Completely taken. If we claim something regarding it, the taker constantly pretends there’s something incorrect with us for observing the appropriation, which we ought to rejoice that they’re cooperating our society. And also it just obtains a lot more obvious when our very own individuals support it and also duplicate it’s immaterial rather than recognizing that the colonial slide is a one method ticket.

That suggestion of the “greater good” truly implies for the good of every person other than the citizen that is opposed to the taking or oversharing of our heritage.

TINA: There’s something exceptionally disquieting for me in what you have actually explained there– there is a feeling of privilege regarding this “admiration” that has a tendency to equivalent privilege. It’s as if “no” simply does not relate to them. They see it, they desire it, they take it, and also we are meant to really feel honoured and also happy. It is our defiance, instead of the act of taking, that is damned. We are anticipated to provide ourselves approximately be sullied– to send and also as a matter of fact to help in this act, and also to be thankful for the possibility. If it seems like I’m speaking about rape society, it’s since that’s specifically just how it appears to me. A social rape. We see this certainly in the method Disney displays privilege towards native tales– yet truly this is a modern expansion of the very same royal attitude that drove Chef’s privilege to cruise right into other individuals’ areas, case land under the teaching “terra nullius”, and also deal with the carnage he left as regrettable civilian casualties.

Keala: You have actually truly appealed something below– it’s a rape society. That goes to the origin of “Western Civilization,” this patriarchal worth and also financial system that obtains called various points. While we understand rape isn’t distinct to the European system, the white superiority that educates that society is quite particular. So they call it extracting, which essentially is a rape of the aina, which is literally penetrated or mutilated to fatality; there’s the removal of “resources” that are required to such a level regarding toss the whole environment off equilibrium. What is done to us socially and also mentally impacts our spirits. We are reversed mentally and also psychically when the Euro-American social and also financial standards are all that’s ever before enhanced, whether by commemorating Captain Chef or Disney’s commodification of our common heritage, something’s being done to us. Jointly.

Yet you’re truly expressing a fact look for everybody, since 250 years after the scaries started for lots of Pacific individuals, we are still subsumed right into the international, white, inhabitant, colonial story people and also our nations. There’s no chance around it. The truth that in Aotearoa the federal government and also individuals assume Chef is somebody to commemorate … tough to obtain my mind around it, other than to connect it to various other important concerns that we are all dealing with now. Negotiation. That appears to be a subliminal audio schedule in Hawaii, and also I understand there have actually been negotiations in your nation. The inhabitant is attempting to resolve us. Still. And also they do it with their stories and also their heroicizing of a male that essentially, not figuratively, yet essentially brought genocidal European illness, like syphilis, to our individuals. He and also his males and also their ships resembled the UNITED STATE Military breaking down tiny pox coverings to innocent citizens on the continent. Various procedures, yet likewise comparable: white individuals intentionally offered lethal illness to indigenous individuals. Isn’t that the initial “gift” of emigration, genocidal illness?

Tina: And also any type of noticeable remorses Prepare had more than that never ever in fact encompassed him reassessing the exploration to begin with. He made a computed choice and also made a decision the rate we would certainly pay deserved it.

Keala: Yes, his suggestion of “the greater good.”

Tina: And also currently, we are in some way cast as being unreasonable, or in some way much less than modern, in directing these concerns out. There’s a lot that we have still to deal with, yet we’re still not also permitted to speak about it wherefore it was, and also the hazard that it still is.

Keala: Right. And also compare that mindset with the method the UNITED STATE is regularly on regarding just how endangered it is, as a country, and also consequently earnings battle on whoever and also anywhere it intends to.

Tina: I understand the armed forces existence in Hawai’i is prevalent in the severe and also your docudrama Noho Hewa truly drives that house. In Aotearoa the armed forces existence is much less noticeable yet I’m likewise unbelievably conscious that what is being anticipated below is the party of a marine attack upon our lands, and also our cumulative sea region. We have a lengthy and also complicated partnership with the armed forces yet they have actually normally constantly been one action in advance of leading the way for the removal of our sources, whether it be the marine vessel Effort hunting the world to assist in the development of the British Realm, or using Maori pressures in the clash of increasing European realms, or protecting Pacific areas as profession messages and also power bases, or using armed forces pressure to clear native individuals far from natural deposits that federal governments have actually negotiated away to international companies, which we see consistently below in Aotearoa and also overseas.

Keala: You raise a truly vital historic and also narrative truth– Captain Chef got on an armed forces goal! I neglect that, or see that as additional to the method he’s represented as some sort of traveler, an excellent navigator, and so on. Uh, he was militarily increasing the British Realm. ‘Value the pointer!

Tina: Yes– the Effort was a marine research study vessel and also Prepare was a marine policeman. We’re anticipating armed forces existence below throughout the parties as well, in acknowledgment of that.

Keala: Tina, that advises me of something a Vietnamese pal in New york city stated to me when. We remained in a taxi went to the train terminal, and also we past the USS Intrepid– it’s completely anchored there, and also is currently a gallery. In Hawaii, we see armed forces leftovers regularly. I indicate, the USS Arizona is a Memorial in Pearl Harbor and also countless individuals see it annually. Yet there we were being in website traffic and also gone was this ship. And also she states to me, “That ship sat off the coast of Vietnam raining down bombs non-stop for a very long time.” I was simply knocked down by that. Visualize what it resembles for Vietnamese individuals to see that f-ing homicidal point.

What you’re speaking about below resembles having it inserted your faces. 250 years later on, though. The colonial task is still refrained from doing with you Maori!

Tina: No, it isn’t. Testing the function of the armed forces in business state frameworks is made tough however, when a lot of our very own background is locked up in it, and also I understand the method which the armed forces attracts our individuals right into enlisting, just how the navy invokes our Atua Tangaroa as a name for its US-NZ battle task, just how the military conjures up the name of our Atua “Tumatauenga” in it’s name (Ngati Tumatauenga, offspring of Tumatauenga) and also in these methods modifies our very own indigenous identifications and also backgrounds and also subsumes them within a Crown construct. We’re entrusted to a depraved circumstance where vessels of battle, having actually nabbed Atua identifications, are battle those very same Atua. It’s a perilous method of deteriorating our very own distinctive functions as protectors of Tangaroa, of Rangi and also of Papa, when those that oppose our security likewise assert these names.

Keala: That’s the procedure, isn’t it? Take. Relabel. Take in components of our very own warrior methods– done in a typically effective initiative to remove us and also our backgrounds. The UNITED STATE armed forces performed or assisted in the successful stroke that toppled the federal government of Queen Liliuokalani. American generals had actually currently established their eyes on Wai Momi (currently called Pearl Harbor), and also although currently it’s a pig sty of militarism and also is currently component of the biggest armed forces command in the world … it was among otherwise the biggest fish pond anywhere. Hawaiians had actually refined the fishpond and also it was among the primary methods they supported themselves, and also they were really solid and also healthy and balanced due to what they consumed and also just how they lived. God recognizes the amount of countless Hawaiians were fed by that fishpond. Currently take a look at it. Speak about desecration, which’s an entire various other device of Realm: desecration.

Yet among the earliest American armed forces fts in Honolulu was called Ft Kamehameha. They have actually called ships and also airplanes and also helicopters therefore lots of points with Hawaiian names. And also plenty times Hawaiian social experts head out there and also honor these homicidal monstrosities and also do Hawaiian petitions. It’s tough to bare, this sort of misuse of Hawaiian society. Simply stating that it’s violent will certainly create some Hawaiians to obtain truly distressed. The price to us of the American Realm’s militarism is continuous. It’s the injury that never ever heals.

Tina: Precisely, and also this is, I think, specifically what we have actually been accessing, this style of desecration, which the desecration of our social landscape, as we see with Disney, and also with tourist, is simply an expansion of the fierce desecration of our spiritual websites such as that executed by the armed force. That both of these aspects have a perilous, sexy component to them, and also connecting these rooms are the incorrect “discovery” stories that look for to redefine our historic experiences at the very same time as they enforce themselves on our spiritual landscapes, like Kealakekua and also Turanganui a Kiwa.

Keala, I am so really thankful for your time and also mana’o. Additionally for your stamina in talking your heart. It’s our love for these locations and also the tipuna that occupy them that drives us to speak up yet I understand so extremely well the dangers taken when we do so. So for your stamina, and also guts, and also all that you have actually shared– mahalo nui.



Anne Keala Kelly is the honor winning filmmaker of “Noho Hewa: The Wrongful Occupation of Hawai‘i,” and also a reporter whose job has actually shown up in The Country and also Indian Nation Today, and also on the Pacifica Network and also Al Jazeera. You can locate a few of her operate at


Tina Ngata comes from the tribal country of Ngati Porou on the East Cape of Te Ika a Maui, Aotearoa (New Zealand). She benefits native college Te Wananga o Aotearoa as a diploma- and also degree-level teacher in native ecological management. She blog sites below the name “The Non-Plastic Maori” regarding concerns connecting to native legal rights and also ecological concerns.